In this conversation, Sam and Joseph speak about the differences between vipassana and Dzogchen, the notion that ignorance and negative emotions can be fully “uprooted,” traditional understandings of meditative progress, conceit, the nature of enlightenment, the relationship between non-duality and freedom, the self as a state of contraction, compassion, and other topics.

Joseph Goldstein has been leading meditation retreats worldwide since 1974. He is a co-founder of the Insight Meditation Society in Barre, Massachusetts, where he is one of the organization’s guiding teachers. He’s the author of Mindfulness: A Practical Guide to Awakening and other books.